Talk:Kaio-ken
Kaio-ken multiplication Why isnt X2, X3, X4, X20, and Super Kaio-ken in the alternet names? :Because the first four you mentioned are just the same move powered up, and the last has its own article. 19:24, May 16, 2010 (UTC) On a related note, it says in the description that the Kaio Ken doubles the users power level, but isn't that only Kaio-Kenx2? I know each higher numbered Kaio-Ken multiplies by that number, but what does Kaio-Kenx1 do?--Black kille 04:13, September 25, 2010 (UTC) : I think that Kaio-Ken normally multiplies by 1.5 and each number after that multiplies by the number specified. - [[User:StratusX|'Stratus'X]] '-' [[User talk:StratusX|'talk']] 22:23, September 25, 2010 (UTC) :: :: I don't know. I think that, based on the way they're named, Kaio-Ken has X effect, and each multiple after the original is a multiple of the original effect. It's listed that the original Kaio-Ken doubled Goku's power on a site referenced by this site when discussing the Super Saiyan power level increase. By that logic, Kaio-Ken x20 represents either an increase of power 20x, or, by calculator math, multiplying by 21 (the 1 to represent the base power level of Goku before applying the increase). That, or 20 doublings, 2 to the power of 20, which gets pretty retarded pretty quickly. :: -GothicSilencer 06:53, December 12, 2010 (UTC) Question How come the first time Goku uses it (it's mistranslated on purpose, which Roshi ends up yelling at him for), it's never mentioned? I'm talking about the one in the original Dragon Ball. However, this is not the same technique, and should probably be put in an article, probably called "Kaio-ken (Dragon Ball)", or "Kyo-ken", since Kyo-ken is what Goku mistranslates the move to. : Goku doesn't learn the Kaio-ken until the Saiyan Saga, so it's not a mistranslation of this technique, or any that I can think of or remember. Can you give the episode where it happens? Perhaps then we could ascertain what technique was attempted. 02:13, June 24, 2010 (UTC) : No, it's definetley a mistranslation. It's even clearly said it was. I don't remember the episode, though. I saw it in the manga, so I wouldn't know. Dragon Ball Volume 4: Strongest Under the Heavens Tale 47: The Kamehameha Master Roshi, disguised as Jackie Chun uses a technique that either makes him drunk or he acts drunk. Afterwards, Goku starts running around with an angry face and kicks Roshi in the back, in the following part, he says it's his Kyo-ken, which Goku thinks means Mad Fury. Roshi then says "You've got your martial arts words wrong!! Kyo-ken means MAD DOG, idiot!". : Hmm, okay I know what you mean now. Mad Dog Fist is a page already. If the mistake isn't there already, you can go ahead and add it. 02:52, June 24, 2010 (UTC) raging blast i have noticed that when you play as goku's base foem and use the kaio-ken he says the name wrong. but when goes x2 and x3 he says it right. 03:32, August 8, 2010 (UTC) Image caption Every time I insert a caption for the infobox image, it doesn't show up. DragonShenron 04:55, October 2, 2010 (UTC) : It appears when you hold your mouse over the image briefly. That is how the caption for the inforboxes is coded right now. 06:42, October 2, 2010 (UTC) : : Thanks! DragonShenron 06:12, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Kaioken x49 lemmie explain something. If a Super Saiyan increases a Saiyan's power 50fold a Kaioken x50 would make sense instead of a Kaioken x49 Besides it use to be 50 why all of a sudden the change?) Toa Kazi----- EDDIE!!! :Kaio-ken (normal) doubles the power of the user. Kaio-ken X2 adds twice as much, for a total of three times the original power. X3 quadruples the users power, and so on until X49 creates X50 power, the same as the Super Saiyan transformation. 23:59, January 11, 2011 (UTC) Makes no sense but ok I will play along. I will just have to be very careful when I am reading articles here. Toa Kazi----- EDDIE!!! 10x, may I ask how you come to this conclusion? When is it stated that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different? When is Kaio-Ken x2 even stated? UberDarkGuardian 04:05, June 4, 2011 (UTC) It does seem odd, since, if X3 did quadruple Goku's power, in his fight with Vegeta, his power level should've been 32,000 instead of 24,000. Dbrainstorm 08:25, June 4, 2011 (UTC) I think the moderators and administrators just want to be right, honestly. They have no sound, logical backing, even with what the Daizenshuu states. UberDarkGuardian 17:10, June 5, 2011 (UTC) Goku's continued use of Kaio-Ken Correct me if I am wrong, but at least in the English Dub of Dragon Ball-Z, there is a moment where Goku is fighting either Cell or Buu and, someone (I think Tien) asks King Kai why Goku isn't using Kaio-Ken. King Kai replys that he has been using it the whole time, he just does it so quickly we don't hear it. Kind of like how he uses the Kamehameha without calling it every time. I was under the impression that by the end of DBZ goku had used Kaio-Ken x 100 or even higher. But I have no idea why I thought that right now. It may be completely wrong about that part. I no longer have access to the videos (I had them all on VHS and I don't want to download them), but could someone maybe look into this and fix the article appropriately. : Might you, by any chance, be remembering this one wrong? Tien was with King Kai during the Namek, Captain Ginyu and Frieza Sagas. And yes. He says King Kai something like "he still can use Kaio-ken, right?" when Goku was being dominated by Frieza. Because Tien didn't know Goku was already using Kaio-ken. So, King Kai informs him that Goku had been using Kaio-ken already (at x20), yet he still was no match against Frieza. And don't you please forget to sign your posts by putting four tildes at the end of them. - 21:09, June 3, 2011 (UTC) Actually, Goku had only been using a x10 when King Kai said that (at least, that's how it was in DBZ Kai) Dbrainstorm 08:31, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : I'm pretty sure it was x20 in Dragon Ball Z (Japanese dub) - 09:23, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : The manga said it was 10X. I have not watched the japanese dub. 09:26, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : Is that so? I think I'll have to check it again. It's been awhile I have seen that epsiode maybe it's me who remembers wrong. But the points stands still. It was never stated that Goku was using Kaio-ken during the Kid Buu Saga. - 09:32, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : Yeah he never used it in the Kid Buu saga, but I guess in the manga it may be a translation mistake. 09:42, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : Okay. When Tienshinhan first brings up he can use Kaio-ken as he didn't know Goku was already using it, King Kai states he was using 10x Kaio-ken. (See Episode 90). Goku later starts using 20x Kaio-ken in Episode 91. My bad. But then again, he's never seen using this technique again, once he upgraded to Super Saiyan. - 10:02, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : : There was no point using it after Super Saiyan, Since Kai-oken put strain on a person's heart and body to use, while Super Saiyan didn't. The Kaio-ken 20X Kamehameha was the last time Kaio-ken was really used. If this page get's that 50X guy, will you (Kill You) protect this page? 10:10, June 4, 2011 (UTC) Sure thing. Any page which gets vandalised regularly should be protected. - 10:15, June 4, 2011 (UTC) Kaio-Ken multipliers Would someone please explain to me what the Kaio-Ken multipliers are? Because apparently on this wiki, with the Kaio-Ken x49 and Kaio-Ken x50, there is an extra Kaio-Ken level somewhere in there. With the series stating that the basic Kaio-Ken is the Kaio-Ken x2, or rather the user's base power level doubled, combined with the Daizenshuu's numbers here: http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=list I don't understand where this new system of multiplication comes from. UberDarkGuardian 05:44, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :"With the series stating that the basic Kaio-Ken is the Kaio-Ken x2..." This is where I think the confusion is coming from. Basic Kaio-ken does double the power, but Goku uses Kaio-ken x2 as a different, more powerful move. 06:18, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :I never really got how Kaio-ken worked. I mean, it was clear that when Goku came back from King Kai's Planet, He had a max power level of 8,000 (The right version!) and Vegeta at the time had a power of 18,000. So when Goku goes Kaio-ken, He would go 16,000. Kaio-ken 2x would be more then 18,000, so why did Goku need to go Kaio-ken 3X to surpass Vegeta? 06:24, June 6, 2011 (UTC) I'll post this here, from my talk page. I can't seem to find a flaw in it.. however, I'm open to discussion! (Well, here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2876-4/dragon-ball/chapter-227.html King Kai states that Goku should never take it above x2. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2877-8/dragon-ball/chapter-228.html Goku states Kaio-Ken simply. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2878-3/dragon-ball/chapter-229.html Goku actually states x2. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2879-7/dragon-ball/chapter-230.html Goku states Kaio-Ken x3. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2879-9/dragon-ball/chapter-230.html We get Goku's power level based off of Bulma's scouter. Being that the first stated reading is 17,000 (and cuts out at 21,000), and Goku's highest base power is >8,000, this would mean that the Kaio-Ken x3 is in fact x3 Goku's base power, while Kaio-Ken x2 (or just Kaio-Ken) puts Goku's power level at >16,000 but <17,000. This is further supported because Goku is barely on-par with Vegeta using the Kaio-Ken (or your Kaio-Ken x2), but when he uses x3 he dominates Vegeta.) UberDarkGuardian 06:36, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :Thank you for the links, they are a good direct source that normal Kaio-ken (double power) is indeed different from Kaio-ken x2. The scouter bit appears to be based on some heavy speculation about everyone fighting at 100% power for all of every fight... which is not true. 06:56, June 6, 2011 (UTC) The ONLY possible scenario I can see where Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different is if (and only if) Kaio-Ken is x1.5 base power. Even then, Kaio-Ken x2 would be equal to x2 base power, and Kaio-Ken x50 would be equal to Super Saiyan, not Kaio-Ken x49. UberDarkGuardian 06:42, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :It is a directly sourced fact that they are different. Now where did 1.5 come from? Please don't speculate here. Kaio-ken is said to be double power, and x2 is something else. The only thing that makes sense is that a x2 adds x2 as much power. 06:58, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :Yes, I have realized this previously. The speculation of Goku's power level, though.. We know Vegeta's maximum was 18,000, and we can safely say that he wouldn't drop much, if at all, from fighting a weaker warrior (perhaps 1,000, maybe 2,000 given a few of the beatings). Goku's base power level of 8,000 would have to drop to at least 5,000 for him to need to quadruple it to 20,000 to stay ahead of Vegeta, and while Goku wasn't exactly winning, he also was NOT getting completely dominated. :To support my point, you should look at the Daizenshuu's numbers. :I'll just post them. : Goku (suppressed): 5,000 M-19 --at full power: Over 8,000 M-19 --Kaio-ken x2: Over 16,000 M-20 --Kaio-ken x3: Over 24,000 M-20 --Kaio-ken x4: Over 32,000 M-20; D7-p.83 It is, in no way, implied that there is an extra multiplier for Kaio-Ken x2. It is x2 power. Kaio-Ken's effect is unlisted because we never find it out.. or do we? These are from the battle on Namek. Goku (suppressed): 5,000 M-24 --true power: 90,000 M-24; D7-p.83 --Kaio-ken: 180,000 M-24 Thus, how much can we really speculate? and how much do we really know? Lastly, the battle with Freeza. Goku: 3,000,000 D7-p.83 --Kaio-ken x10: 30,000,000 D7-p.83 --Kaio-ken x20: 60,000,000 D7-p.83 --Super Saiyan: 150,000,000 D7-p.83 Super Saiyan is x50, Kaio-Ken x10 is x10, Kaio-Ken x20 is x20. Clearly I'm missing the whole "extra multiplier" thing... I apologize for the retarded formatting! UberDarkGuardian 07:19, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :I have already noted that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different (or, rather, I have now on my talk page.), however no where is it stated that Kaio-Ken (no multiplier stated) itself is a x2 power boost. King Kai simply states to never take it OVER x2 Goku's base power, implying that x2 Goku's power is a multiplier of Kaio-Ken BEYOND the base Kaio-Ken. Also, a x2 multiplier doesn't necessarily add x2 as much power. It is a multiplier and should be treated as such. UberDarkGuardian 07:18, June 6, 2011 (UTC) All of these numbers work for the current revision if everyone fights the same way they have throughout the series, conserving power rather than wasting it by being at 100% for hours long fights, as well as the base Kaio-ken power multiplier. It also works assuming they are able to maintain 100% power for hours, which they probably aren't, but it contradicts the series. It's not that I think you're wrong, it's just that the facts support the article as written. Also, no offense, but you're changing your stuff all around, which makes it kinda hard to take your word for anything: "With the series stating that the basic Kaio-Ken is the Kaio-Ken x2, or rather the user's base power level doubled" "I have already noted that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different (or, rather, I have now on my talk page.), however no where is it stated that Kaio-Ken (no multiplier stated) itself is a x2 power boost." That pretty much kills your credibility for this one. I'll be back tomorrow if anyone finds something new. 07:45, June 6, 2011 (UTC)